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yungcurtis
01-03-2009, 05:11 PM
do smallball players experience fatigue? I ask this because as my team 614702 plays, which by the way have not been training offensively, it seems that they wear down the other pitcher until he starts walking batters. I know that this may only happened because i play 6* teams but are my batters really wearing down the opposing pitcher?

mlthmp
01-03-2009, 05:42 PM
Honestly, im not sure. I've heard the arguments for both "sides" of this issue. Some say yes, some say no. I'd like to hear some input from some of the greats (DarkElf, willy, etc) to see their thoughts on the topic.

I'd also LOVE to hear commish's input on this, as odds are he knows 100% for sure lol.

Rsandz
01-03-2009, 05:47 PM
I don't think so. Not that i've noticed. But i'm not sure. That could explain a lot of games where the score is 1-0 or 0-0 for most of the game, but in the last inning, a team scores like 5 or 6 runs.

fishtremble
01-03-2009, 05:47 PM
Wow this is a great question that I would for sure love to hear from some of the greats on. I personally believe on the games I initiate there seems to be a small level of fatigue at least for the pitcher on my team. It has always appeared to me that on days I initiate the most games my pitcher requires a bit more pie in order to top back out in pitch.

NRaider
01-03-2009, 06:38 PM
I believe there is. Especially in Football. I would train a team and lets say they hit 8*s. I would play a few games and then check the team, and they will drop down to 7*s. I think that multiple games will drain some of your teams skills.

oaf
01-03-2009, 06:53 PM
I believe there is. Especially in Football. I would train a team and lets say they hit 8*s. I would play a few games and then check the team, and they will drop down to 7*s. I think that multiple games will drain some of your teams skills.
No. Playing games would just update your star level to the server. So let's say you finish training, and your team is just over 8*. Then you play a few games. By the time you play your 3rd or 4th game, about an hour has passed since you've trained, and there has been enough skill loss to bring your team down to 7*. It doesn't matter how many games you play, just how long it's been since you trained.

http://my.opera.com/Eddie_Lopez/homes/blog/The_More_You_Know.jpg

willybang
01-03-2009, 07:27 PM
This is something that has intrigued me for some time...

I have discussed it often with Nelmo and Market Wizard and also Dastech, but no-one is certain..

In the past it has been discussed and the general consensus seems to be that fatigue is not programmed in...
But to my knowledge, the one man who knows for certain, Commish, has never commented.

What I have noticed, like Fishtremble, is pitcher fatigue...

I would sometimes leave all my PL' games until the last day...
Start off fine, but after say 5 games I would lose a couple of games badly...
on opening the DT I would find my pitcher had dropped from 111-112 to 108mph!
It wouldn't always happen but I could never find out why unless it was just due to server update times...

Beaner
01-03-2009, 09:17 PM
I'm pretty sure that Commish has commented on it in the past. I'm pretty sure there is no fatigue in baseball (I can't speak for soccer). Maybe it seems like there is sometimes, although I myself have never noticed it. I guess it's kind of like how people insist that PL games and BL games render differently, but Commish has always said they are exactly the same. ;)

DarkElf
01-04-2009, 02:54 AM
Agreed, Beaner. I seem to remember Commish saying there was no fatigue in SmallBall.

The OP seems to be asking about late inning fatigue, as opposed to getting tired because of playing a lot of games in a row. We can safely assume that playing a lot of games won't hurt your team because, after all, why would Commish purposely program things to discourage you from playing more games?

But more on point, about late inning fatigue for pitchers, has anyone simply kept track of their scoring by inning over the course of several seasons? I've never bothered because it doesn't seem like anything important. Even if scoring does increase toward the end of the game, it's going to affect both teams, so who cares. But I think keeping track of scoring by inning would shed a lot of light on this. People always talk about the big last inning, but I think it's just that those stick in your head. My guess is that given a large enough sample size, scoring would even out, except possibly for the first inning because people tend to put their best hitters early in the lineup, and those hitters always come to bat in the first inning.

Oh, and if anyone does decide to track the scoring, remember to take into account whether a team doesn't bat in the bottom of the ninth.

fishtremble
01-04-2009, 06:11 AM
I am confused, if there is no such thing as fatigue then why years ago did we have all this drama over "frogging"? If we are saying we have no skill loss from playing multiple games on the same day then playing all your games in say 20 mins using the old "frogging" method vs half a day using today's method could not possibly have been any advantage to the "froggers" since it seems we are saying that a hot team should stay hot at least until the next training session. Not arguing the points above just trying to understand why we branded people as cheaters back then but today armed with this data seems like we should all be begging for "frogging" to return.

For those unfamiliar with the term "frogging" way back we could use multiple terminals to log into our teams and initiate games getting them done way faster than normal but this was ruled to be cheating I believe.??

DarkElf
01-04-2009, 09:32 AM
You're equating "fatigue" with skill loss and hot/cold streaks, and they're not the same thing. Read the first few posts carefully; they're talking about a pitcher getting tired in the later innings and giving up more runs. The idea that players (especially pitchers) get tired as the game goes into later innings has nothing to do with skill loss because the game is determined/rendered in an instant.


And it's funny you mention frogging. I was going to bring it up in the Old School/New School thread. If you don't remember frogging, you're New School. :)

epiphanic
01-04-2009, 09:33 AM
eople always talk about the big last inning, but I think it's just that those stick in your head.

I don't have any data to back my opinion scientifically (sorry, DE), but I think this is right. It's like "clutch ability" or the idea that September games are more important than April ones. The context (in this case, the previous 8 innings) cloud our judgement on the true nature of the 9th.


I am confused, if there is no such thing as fatigue then why years ago did we have all this drama over "frogging"? If we are saying we have no skill loss from playing multiple games on the same day then playing all your games in say 20 mins using the old "frogging" method vs half a day using today's method could not possibly have been any advantage to the "froggers" since it seems we are saying that a hot team should stay hot at least until the next training session. Not arguing the points above just trying to understand why we branded people as cheaters back then but today armed with this data seems like we should all be begging for "frogging" to return.

Fatigue is not the same as skill loss. If, as DarkElf mentioned, the original question is concerned about "in game" fatigue, then the answer is no. If the original question is concerned with "multi-game" fatigue, then the answer is still no. Oaf provided the reason why the illusion exists, DarkElf provided the logic why it wouldn't exist, and Commish has said (in other threads) that fatigue is not part of SmallBall. Frogging allowed teams to play multiple games simultaneously. Since games are rendered instantaneously, teams that frog will have multiple games with little to no skill loss when those games were initiated. Skill loss is constantly happening and isn't tied to how many games are played. In theory, if you play a game 2 hours after training, it would render the same regardless if you played a game 1 hour earlier or not.*

*Keep in mind that SmallBall's rendering process involves enough "random luck" that would make testing such a hypothesis virtually impossible.


And it's funny you mention frogging. I was going to bring it up in the Old School/New School thread. If you don't remember frogging, you're New School. :)

I remember frogging being mentioned on the old forums, but it was eliminated before I joined SmallBall. Does that mean I'm Mid-School? :P

fishtremble
01-04-2009, 10:32 AM
Okay I understand the angle you guys are using with the word "fatigue". I have always attibuted fatigue=skill loss in this game so like Willy was just using something such as pitch speed in DT as an example. On days I initiate less games I do see a difference in the amount of pie I have to use to remax my pitcher compared to a heavy day of initiating so I do believe that initiating more games does cause more fatigue on my pitcher.

I understand what you mean as well on "frogging" because I agree over the course of a day your players are having their normal skill loss occuring so multiple games at once does give an advantage here.

DarkElf
01-04-2009, 09:31 PM
On days I initiate less games I do see a difference in the amount of pie I have to use to remax my pitcher compared to a heavy day of initiating so I do believe that initiating more games does cause more fatigue on my pitcher.

Boy, I would love to see someone do a detailed study on this and provide some hard numbers. I still don't believe Commish would program something in the game that discourages you from initiating games, but maybe it was inadvertent.

I won't do the study though. The only games I ever initiate are my 9 PL games.

GodofAcid
01-05-2009, 01:45 PM
The idea that players (especially pitchers) get tired as the game goes into later innings has nothing to do with skill loss because the game is determined/rendered in an instant.


That's the key to the whole thing. If your team is going to lose 10-9, they're going to lose, doesn't mean your pitcher got tired or anything like that. Really they're matched up "on paper" so to speak and the score is determined by that (I'm assuming, this is how these things usually work). Now whether the game was programmed to have rallies in the 9th or it's compensation by the coding not equally distributing the runs over the course of a game and then making up for it at the last possible moment, I don't know. I'd guess the first since the losing team's runs are usually distributed more evenly. I don't believe it has to do with pitcher fatigue, even though it may seem that way. Even if it were, we have no control over that.. there are no relievers so it's just something we all deal with.

It's why I have teams challenge me and I win 1:0, then they'll challenge me again and I'll lose 1:0, funny how they usually don't challenge me a third time :lol: but that's evidence that on paper, the teams are pretty equal and they're set up for mostly low scoring games that would be in the neighborhood of 50/50 over an extended period of time. The thing you should pay the most attention to is if you challenge a team 5 times and you get hammered 5 times. That means they're doing something better than you and you need to figure out how to better arrange your team to win. The rallies, they're just part of the game, very frustrating at times but I don't think there's any reason to believe there's something wrong with your pitcher because it happens. Again, it happens to every team.

epiphanic
01-05-2009, 03:21 PM
Expanding on DE's and GoA's points, I would hypothosize that if the run scoring distribution is skewed to the 9th, it's for the reason to make games more exciting when you watch them.

GodofAcid
01-05-2009, 03:44 PM
Yep that would be my thought

yungcurtis
01-05-2009, 07:23 PM
Expanding on DE's and GoA's points, I would hypothosize that if the run scoring distribution is skewed to the 9th, it's for the reason to make games more exciting when you watch them.

That does make sense, maybe its just part of Smallball.